Now the talk centred on a discussion which was the main thing that had drawn the distinguished members to Gandhiji.
"Is non-violence from your point of view a form of direct action?" inquired Dr.
Thurman. "It is not one form, it is the only form," said Gandhiji. "I do not of
course confine the words 'direct action' to their technical meaning. But without
a direct active expression of it, nonviolence to my mind is meaningless. It is
the greatest and the activest force in the world. One cannot be passively
non-violent. Ahimsa means 'love' in the Pauline sense, and yet something more
than the 'love' defined by St. Paul, although I know St. Paul's beautiful
definition is good enough for all practical purposes. Ahimsa includes the whole
creation, and not only human. One person who can express Ahimsa in life
exercises a force superior to all the forces of brutality.
Q. And is it possible for any individual to achieve this?
Gandhiji: Certainly. If there was any exclusiveness about it, I should reject it at once.
Q. Is any idea of possession foreign to it?
Gandhiji: Yes. It possesses nothing, therefore it possesses everything.
Q. Is it possible for a single human being to resist the persistent invasion of the
Gandhiji: It is possible. Perhaps your question is more universal than you mean. Isn't it
possible, you mean to ask, for on single Indian, for instance, to resist the
exploitation of 300 million Indians? Or do you mean the onslaught of the whole
world against a single individual personally?
Dr. Thurman: Yes, that is one half of the question. I wanted to know if one man can
hold the whole violence at bay.
Gandhiji: If he cannot, you must take it that he is not a true representative of Ahimsa.
Supposing I cannot produce a single instance in life of a man who truly
converted his adversary, I would then say that it is because no one had yet been
found to express Ahimsa in its fullness.
Q. Then it overrides all other forces?
Gandhiji: Yes, it is the only true force in life.
Forgive now the weakness of this question," said Dr. Thurman, who was absolutely
absorbed in the discussion. "Forgive the weakness, but may I ask how are we to
train individuals or communities in this difficult art?"
Gandhiji: There is no royal road, except through living the creed in your life which must
be a living sermon. Of course, the expression in one's own life presupposes
great study, tremendous perseverance, and thorough cleaning of one's self of all
the impurities. If for mastering of the physical sciences you have to devote a
whole lifetime, how many lifetimes may be needed for mastering the greatest
spiritual force that mankind has known? But why worry even if it means several
lifetimes? For, if this is the only permanent thing in life, if this is the only
thing that counts, then whatever effort you bestow on mastering it is well
spent. Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and everything else shall be added
unto you. The Kingdom of Heaven is Ahimsa.
Mrs. Thurman had restrained herself until now. But could not go away without asking
the question with which, she knew, she would be confronted any day. "How am I to
act, supposing my own brother was lynched before my very eyes?"
"There is such a thing as self-immolation," said Gandhiji. "Supposing I was a Negro, and
my sister was ravished by a White or lynched by a whole community, what would be
my duty? - I ask myself. And the answer comes to me: I must not wish ill to
these, but neither must I co-operate with them. It may be that ordinarily I
depend on the lynching community for my livelihood. I refuse to co-operate with
them, refuse even to touch the food that comes from them, and I refuse to
co-operate with even my brother Negroes who tolerate the wrong. That is the
self-immolation I mean. I have often in my life resorted to the plan. Of course
a mechanical act of starvation will mean nothing. One's faith must remain
undimmed whilst life ebbs out minute by minute. But I am a very poor specimen of
the practice of non-violence, and my answer may not convince you. But I am
striving very hard, and even if I do not succeed fully in this life, my faith
will not diminish."